Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Purist » 8th July 2011, 19:24

fyi

I'm a scholar of world religions. Not a practitioner.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Afromode » 8th July 2011, 20:01

@Purist, Any experience in world beliefs(more importantly African) with regards to creation?
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Purist » 8th July 2011, 20:34

maybe. If you may please define 'experience'.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Afromode » 8th July 2011, 20:38

@Purist, pardon me. The queen's language got the better of me..what I meant was knowledge.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Purist » 8th July 2011, 21:29

I think it is important to note that by man's very nature, he has the curiosity to ask the question: Where did I come from? So the stories of creation through societies of the world exist not necessarily because they happened literally but as an attempt by man to answer that question.

Another important point to make is that the story of creation in the bible is not original. It is a variation of other older texts. I like the stories of creation with an African origin because a number of them even attempt to explain why man comes in different skin colors.

I regret when adherents of some religions lose the idea behind a story or a teaching and become mindless zealots.

I also think that it is a terrible mistake for one culture to go to another culture and pretend that the teaching of that other culture are wrong and then proceed to impose the teachings of their own culture. Perhaps this explains the confusion here in Zambia where people claim to be Christian but behave anything but. There is utter confusion among Zambians who call themselves Christians. And indeed, most of them don't even bother to search for African moral guides that were long discarded as paganism by the invading Europeans. I think if a people had no moral code of their own, Christianity is as good as any moral guide. But adherents to this teaching have to really understand what it's all about.

Christianity is definitely not about the cathedrals we have built nor the power structures throughout Christendom. Nor is it about the "Sunday best" clothing and cars and this sort of thing. And Christianity should not be a tool with which to attack or demonize other ideas or other people.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Panoramic » 8th July 2011, 21:42

Ok guys thanks for the intelligent discussions and points. I am impressed how pipo put things articulately.
The only problem is we have found ourselves as Zambians in so much deep about the " declaration" that it would be virtually impossible to reverse things and inevitably face future embarrassment. Somewhere someone is secretly smiling at how we have made a laughing stock of ourselves.
Anyway can we imagine what would happen to all the missions, schools orphanages, clinics & hospitals AND MORE IMPORTANTLY ALL THE MONEY BEING "IMPORTED" IN THE NAME OF RELIGION AND MAINTAINING MANY A "SCREAMING" PASTOR- His lifestyle and everything he receives- if someone even attempts to discuss otherwise.
Just a thought....
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Purist » 8th July 2011, 22:07

As we speak, throughout Europe, people are slowly discovering the dark side of religious zealotry. More specifically, when religions collide and adherents on both sides have had their priorities corrupted. Both Christianity and Islam are guilty of losing the central message to their respective religion. They have now become marred in symbolism and other irrelevant aspects of these religions.

Muslims want to live in France and Germany and the UK and other European countries that have for centuries, been predominantly Christian. But these Muslims also want to bring their own terms like dress codes for women and other really nonsensical issues. And the Christian on their part, want none of it. So two stubborn, confused groups clash in a melee where common sense is usually the first casualty.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Zambian » 8th July 2011, 22:44

Purist,

You have put into words what I've been wanting to. For that, I thank you.

I was brought up in a christian home and did not question that. As I have grown older I have started to ask questions about certain aspects of certain issues, the burning one being; should the bible be taken literally or as moral guidance? I still feel guilty for questioning what I took as 'gospel truth' without question for the best part of my life (still struggling with that but getting better). I respect other peoples opinions, points of view, religion, race, preferences, etc. I have found some solace in, rightly or wrongly, the thought that whatever one believes in we will all find out soon enough. Heaven and/or hell? Hereafter? No-one has yet lived to tell the tale. Christians may argue that a few individulas in the bible told the tale. Others may argue that's all these were - tales written by other humans. So, soon enough.

Life, in my humble opinion, is about living one's life to one's best ability, respecting others, loving others, having the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, loving one's self and so on and so forth.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Purist » 9th July 2011, 00:42

Zambian,

I know exactly what you mean and I agree with your analysis. I think it is terribly important for each one of us to find her/his own truth. I am a firm believer that an individual's sincere quest for truth usually ends in the right place. The worst one can do is to settle for what one has been taught without employing one's own critical thinking.

Last year in the UK an MP Stephen Timms, was stabbed twice in the stomach. Fortunately he survived the attack. A well educated British Muslim woman was the culprit. Apparently she had immersed herself in some YouTube jihadist propaganda. It's said she watched and listened to hours and hours of this garbage. She picked out the MP because he was an easy target. A popular leftist politician who championed many causes of minority groups. So he was more exposed to people like this Muslim woman. But he had also voted in favor of Britain going to war for the US. In Iraq. A Muslim country. And that's what ticked her off. So she stabbed him after having offered him her hand as in greeting. After her arrest, she had no regrets except that the MP didn't die. She claimed she wanted to die a martyr and be assured a place in heaven.

That's how religion can corrupt a mind if one lets it.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Panoramic » 9th July 2011, 03:40

I find so much hypocrisy in our country and blame game keeps shifting instead of looking at the root problem of "shortcut" habits within us.
We have a big challenge on us about the religion of Islam. It is spreading like wildfire all over the world although the western media seems to be trying to control things... any thoughts?
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Rogue Trader » 9th July 2011, 08:46

The originator of this thread appears to specifically refer to sexual immorality (judging by the kachepa360.com link). Sexual immorality and gossip have always been prevalent in Zambia but, in this digital age, it happens to be more widely exposed and propagated.

In regard to Christianity and our dear country, I hasten to say that our real enemy is the lack of an effective constitution. Someone referred to the American founding fathers' belief in God without stopping to consider that these men bestowed an excellent constitution upon the USA. One which has stood the test of time. The Zambian one, on the other hand, has always been changed to suit the selfish needs of our leaders. If we brought China into the argument, you will note that their Government doesn't even believe in God. I wouldn't credit their progress on the lack of religious beliefs. Rather, it is the result of serious planning and reform (something seriously lacking in 'Christian Zambia').

In regard to morality, or our perceptions of it, I say these are personal matters which can only be sorted out on a personal level. Even in a 'Christian nation', one can't force the proverbial horse to drink the water at the river.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Zambian » 9th July 2011, 10:52

Rogue,

I hear you, mate. Please tell me if I'm wrong; shouldn't the issue of sexual immorality be a personal choice? What I'm trying to say is, what may be sexually immoral for me may not necessarily be sexually immoral for you. People make choices.If we look at the issue in the context of Zambian culture, there a saying that goes, 'Ubu chende bwa mwaume tabu toba ing'anda'. That i think loosely translates into, 'A man's infidelity will not break a home'. How can that be justified? Now, women are fighting to be recognised as equals, too, hence the attitude 'What's good for the goose is good for the gander'. And righlty so, in my opinion.

But getting back to immorality, I think different people, let alone cultures, look at any sort of 'immorality' from different aspects. This topic, I feel, is a pandoras box. It brings up issues of homosexuality, fornication, adultery, all sorts. And you will find people have what they see as a valid point for doing what they do, which might in turn not suit everyone. Equality and diversity.

'If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything'. That, for me, sums up the Zambian political scene. There is no consistency. Anywhere. Well, I suppose I could say Zambia is consistent at being inconsistent. What is more painful, tho, is the amount of intelligent people that discuss these issues anonymously, on some forum somewhere (guilty #1, me) when we seem not to have the guts to stand up, loud and proud to be Zambian, to be heard by those that need to hear these issues. We are the reason they are where they are. Let us be the reason they go where they belong (wherever that may be). Enough is enough.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Panoramic » 9th July 2011, 21:44

RT and Zambian
Thanx for the insights ...
i always feel material and as well as spiritual progress go hand in hand...
bwana RT are you seriously envious of the chinese who are materially progressive at the expense of the rights and liberties of their ppl (and now zambians) just because they do not have any one to answer to after they die?!
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Guest » 10th July 2011, 22:07

Panoramic,
I beg to differ on a point you raised; that material and spiritual progression go hand in hand. Ideally, I think they should. Individuals that have progressed materially may not always have progressed spiritually. My experience has been that people that have less material possessions are more spiritually in tune as opposed to their materially 'wealthier' counterparts.

I wholeheartedly concur with you in questioning Rogue's envy of our oriental visitors. Their work ethic would be enviable IF they acknowledged their workforce as human beings with human rights. Take what just happened in the UK a few weeks ago; the Chinese prime minister visited. David Cameron or some other politician brought up the issue of human rights (or lack thereof) in china. The oriental politician did not take kindly to this and signed some measly figure deal with the UK. WHY do politicians turn a blind eye to something so obvious? For me, that's the billion dollar question. At grassroot level, most people would shy away from someone that was so blatantly crooked.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Rogue Trader » 10th July 2011, 23:40

Messrs Panoramic and Guest

Please read my statement again and try to understand what I said. If you re-read it, you will note that I raised the following issues about the USA and China;

- I acknowledged that the founding fathers expressed a strong belief in God but attributed their success to bestowing upon their country a good constitution which has stood the taste of time. Zambia is seriously lacking in that department and as long as we continue to lack, our only hope will be to appeal to the better nature of whoever is in power. I said that our constitution has always been altered to suit the selfish needs of those in power.

- In regard to China, I acknowledged their success in spite of their government's refusal to acknowledge God. I EXPLICITLY STATED THAT ONE WOULDN'T ATTRIBUTE THEIR SUCCESS TO THE FACT THAT THEY ARE 'GODLESS'. IT IS THEIR PLANNING AND REFORM PROGRAMS WHICH DROVE THEM TO WHERE THEY ARE TODAY. I ALSO SAID THIS TYPE OF PLANNING AND REFORM IS SERIOUSLY LACKING IN ZAMBIA. Nowhere did I express any form of envy nor did I condone any of their institutionally immoral approach towards human dignity.

As far as I am concerned, those two points are the main reason why we are not developing as fast as we should (Christian or not).

Before you put words in my mouth, please endeavour to understand what I said and seek clarification if necessary.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Panoramic » 11th July 2011, 00:18

Wa RT
Ok before you blow a vein and we start calling you the RaTe.
I apologise if i am being short, curt and probing. I do not have the energy to articulate arguments like you guys.
Maybe I am being biased if I continue to say and summarise:
1. You cannot progress if you do not combine the two, Spiritual and Material,
2. China OR the USA are not ones to be envied or even used as yardsticks for progress coz they are either human exploiters (China) or Natures polluters. (The US of A).
Dont forget Africa will be paying for all THEIR SINS...Famine , drought, floods etc.. still to come God forbid.. Our poor children... why?..
You know the saying what goes around comes around... but thats another day...

My point is can we / do us Zambian have hope with all our natural as well as the little spiritual strength left to halt things or before we blow it all and / or we just sit and let human greed and capitalism take over and mess up things the way they are doing all over the world?
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Rogue Trader » 11th July 2011, 01:40

Panoramic

Interesting for you to say that the USA and China are not to be used as yardsticks for progress because they are polluters and exploiters. Let's not forget that Zambians are also heavy polluters and exploiters.

Pollution: Kabwe is one of the most polluted towns in the world and a lot of this pollution occurred when the mines were owned by the Zambian government. In urban Zambia, you may want to drive around the major cities and towns to see the high level of pollution. Zambians are responsible for much of this pollution.

Exploitation: Just look at the minimum wage in Zambia (set by Zambians). Can one reasonably expect a worker (let alone their family) to survive on this? Look around and see how many Zambians are exploited by fellow Zambians.

To borrow from spiritual teachings: Just not lest you be judged.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Guest » 11th July 2011, 03:33

RT

Please hold your fire. I do not think anyone is putting words in your mouth. This forum is for expressing whatever burning issues we may have. And as such, we expect our arguments to be either discredited and/or approved, agreed with and/or disagreed with. Nothing personal. More importantly, if one disagrees it is not to say you're wrong; it just means the have a different point of view. It's healthy, I find, to debate.

I agree with you, RT, on the state of Kabwe's atmosphere. I grew up there. You could smell the mines from miles away. If I'm not mistaken, Kabwe single handedly had the highest rates of TB for a good while, and I vaguely remember someone saying there were a few people suing the mines for various pollution related illnesses.

This whole issue then takes us back to the whole allowing foreigners in to teach us 'progress'. At what cost, tho? And we sure will pay the price for that. Is there such a thing as minimum wage in Zambia? Again, I agree that that is a form of labour exploitation. This then begs the question; what is the government doing about this issue? If they turn out to be the biggest culprits then they need to be brought to book.

From my observation, the general attitude from people in Zambia is one of animalistic self-preservation. We have lost our humanity. We care for others on a superficial level. But then again, looking at the Zambian economic situation, the superficial care is almost understandable, not justifiable. There is no justifiable reason to lose one's humanity- not before, not now, not ever.

There are countless issues that politicians are not made accountable for, when they should. Being in politics should never be about self-preservation. It should be about national-preservation, and more importantly, SERVING the nation. If I may, can I stress that anyone in any position of power is a servant to the people that put him in power. So why are we afraid to say this to the politicians? Collectively, we are mightier than they are.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Rogue Trader » 11th July 2011, 07:57

Guest

I salute you. Your post above is in itself an excellent treatise on morality. For some reason, many of our more spiritually focussed countrymen appear to be more concerned by sexual immorality than any other form of immorality. You have pointed out the core human qualities which we collectively lack as a country. These are matters which relate our basic physiological needs as well as human dignity.
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Re: Moral Decay in OUR Christain Nation

Postby Panoramic » 11th July 2011, 14:43

Ok again the distinction between the now 2 moralities!! They are intertwined pipo intertwined.
You steal because you are hungry or greedy. then when you eat the same money you want sex so you dont have boundaries coz of stealing in the first place then you feel hungry again and then again you steal and then after eating you want to fu** so you f*** anything that walks , after binge drinking and vomiting in the morning and so on and so forth....
Then comes sex education to grade fives and respecting homos in schools openly and demonstrating how to use a condom on a banana
ON POLLUTION - and that's why US of A runs away from Global Warming summits.
That means that the models of sea-level rise used to predict an increase of up to 3ft by 2100 may have significantly underestimated its ultimate extent, which could be as great as 20ft. Such a rise would threaten cities such as London, New York, Bombay and Tokyo. Large parts of the Netherlands, Bangladesh and Florida would be inundated, and even smaller rises would flood extreme low-lying areas, such as several Pacific islands and New Orleans. AKA Prophecy of Doom.
Again I say this all not yet lost if we heed.

By the way our forest are being depleted at "huge" alarming rates with charcoal burning and land clearing for mining etc. phew!!
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